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Philigula

Commanders in Legends

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Legends!

It's time to talk about Commanders, and without further ado let us just show you a screenshot:

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Please keep in mind that this is still very much work in progress and most of the details, including skill configurations, stats and even some art. You'll notice that there are already more skills available in the game 🙂 

And boy is there a lot to explain here! But let's start at the beginning. When implementing commanders we wanted to make sure that they are fun, varied and are something that you, Legends, can identify with. They represent an avatar of sorts, that will enhance gameplay on the ship of your choice in various ways. And that can be attained by trying out different commanders with particular tendencies or using the different builds of the same commander, thereby boosting diverse facets of your warship.

Please note that commanders are bound to their nations' ships, in this case it means that William Halsey can only be at the helm of American vessels. At the same time you can reassign commanders between their national ships without any penalties as well as switch the skills you're using at will between the battles, so you're quite free in your experiments!

Now, let's unpack what we're seeing on the screenshot above. Obviously we're dealing with William "Bull" Halsey, and he is one of several commanders you'll be able to get acquainted with and cause some naval destruction together. Going back to the screenshot, you can see that Fleet Admiral Halsey is at the 5th rank, which is effectively his combat level, determining the skills available to him and his proficiency with each of them. Commander skills give passive bonuses to particular stats of a ship. Each commander will have a base trait, and 5 tiers of skills to choose from. At this point we have 2 skills per tier, but that is subject to change. What we plan to achieve is for you to always have some choice when it comes to picking a skill, whichever class you may prefer. Halsey's base trait "Sixth Sense" grants the ship he commands additional torpedo detection range. This helps with spotting torpedoes a second or so earlier, which can mean the difference between sinking or carrying on with the battle. The skill selected in the picture, "On Second Thought", speeds up the reload time of main battery when switching shells, but requires the guns to be loaded first. This is useful in several scenarios and mostly for battleships and cruisers, when fighting against angled opponents or simply ships with thick armor that cruiser AP shells just can not overmatch. 

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Moving along the skill trees you will always have a choice, for example Halsey's other option on the 2nd tier is "Reaching Out", it allows low caliber guns (of up to 139 mm) to fire farther away, thereby giving Bull's ship a slight edge in distance. This is particularly useful for destroyers' main batteries as well as battleship secondaries and translates indirectly into damage dealt.

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You might notice that each skill has a ribbon underneath it, these ribbons indicate what kind of skill it is. Red ribbon stands for "confrontation" - skills most useful for direct battle situations, meaning they affect your aiming and firing capabilities. "Survivability" denoted with a green ribbon is just that - skills that make your ship live longer in a battle, be it through boosting Damage Control Party or giving an HP percentage increase or anything to allow your ship to withstand more punishment. There are skills that combine both, like one of Halsey's legendary skills - "Intuitive" which prolongs Hydroacoustic Search and Surveillance Radar's active time as well as shows the direction of where the closest enemy ship is. Some skills, regardless of being Confrontation and/or Survivability skills, can also belong to "Unity"category, if they benefit other members of your team.

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All of the skills in the trees except for base traits have four mastery levels which increase automatically as you rank up your commander. Depending on the tier, particular skills increase in mastery on specific commander ranks. Base traits' mastery, however, increases with each rank.

To rise in rank you use Commander XP that is earned in a similar way as Ship XP. Commander XP, however, is always stored in a shared pool and you need to spend it on a particular commander to progress through ranks. To advance past particular ranks (7,11) you will also need to use promotion items, that you'll be able to earn by completing tasks and combat missions. After rank 16, to advance your commander you no longer need XP but rather a different kind of promotional item. At this point he can maximize his base skill mastery acquiring additional effects as well as gain access to legendary skills.

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Be advised that the feature is still a work in progress and there's going to be influx of new faces and skills alike in the future. Some art, descriptions and effects are still not final.

When we go live you will have commanders available for both nations so you'll be able to start your and their journey right away.

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Looking forward to spending more time with these commanders. Think I’m going to like this system and particularly like the injection of history. You’ll find me on their Wikipedia pages for sure. 

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I like it but i feel a lot of my liking it is do to playing Wot of PS over 2 years also from playing Wows on PC.  From playing Wows on PC i knew what my goal was and playing Wot on PS i figured out pretty easy on how to get there.  Maybe it's just me lol

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2 hours ago, Cruiser Abukuma said:

Can I suggest allowing every skill to be choosable by any commander as the current system is heavily limiting and restricts playstyle greatly

This is the explanation I got a couple weeks back from a mod ( not staff/dev)

With respect to the Commanders, there are very definitely two distinct battle lines when it comes opinion; there's the side that believe it offers less freedom, choice and is restrictive and then there are people that feel that on the face of it that is how it appears; but the game is making you take tougher choices, getting you to focus on what skills would suit your playstyle of a class rather than just the cookie cutter builds we see on PC.

When it comes to the module system; they have taken some of the mods out but they provided justification for that in the patch notes and the linear progression actually makes more sense, at least in my opinion, than having 101 options thrown at you (this also hankers back somewhat to my point about Commanders.)

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15 hours ago, Ruthless4u said:

This is the explanation I got a couple weeks back from a mod ( not staff/dev)

With respect to the Commanders, there are very definitely two distinct battle lines when it comes opinion; there's the side that believe it offers less freedom, choice and is restrictive and then there are people that feel that on the face of it that is how it appears; but the game is making you take tougher choices, getting you to focus on what skills would suit your playstyle of a class rather than just the cookie cutter builds we see on PC.

When it comes to the module system; they have taken some of the mods out but they provided justification for that in the patch notes and the linear progression actually makes more sense, at least in my opinion, than having 101 options thrown at you (this also hankers back somewhat to my point about Commanders.)

Or in other words: WG doesn't want to give the players many choices, unfortunately. 

As @T33kanne mentioned: that is what the players want.

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17 minutes ago, Momowala said:

Or in other words: WG doesn't want to give the players many choices, unfortunately. 

As @T33kanne mentioned: that is what the players want.

Until the players decide they want more choice at least lol.

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to be honest. There are more layers to decision making.

the first decisions:

"which of the commanders are a good choice for my class?". Coupled with: "is this the commander usable with my play style?"

next ones: 

"what are the best skills for my play style every tier?" … "do i need defensive skills as well?" … "how often am.i really using my torpedoes?" … " are guns specific skills the better option?" … 

and off course some decisions are hard to make. Von Spee has two tier one skills, i would like to take on my german DDs. "unstoppable" and "a thousand cuts" both are very powerful and useful on german DDs (hybrids). Even the third option is very nice "homerun". third row is hard as well. "look at me now" and "delicious" are both very useful on german DDs, because they have mediocre speed and concealment alike. 

sims has three interesting legendary skills. If you already skilled "homerun", the negative effect on "less is more" is barely noticeable anymore. Good if you play torpedo focused. If you play more gun focused, "back in stock" or "stand or fall" are both valid options.

i want to skill two row one skills and skip the tier three one but that is not allowed … and its good that way.

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34 minutes ago, KaLeuWillenbrock said:

to be honest. There are more layers to decision making.

the first decisions:

"which of the commanders are a good choice for my class?". Coupled with: "is this the commander usable with my play style?"

next ones: 

"what are the best skills for my play style every tier?" … "do i need defensive skills as well?" … "how often am.i really using my torpedoes?" … " are guns specific skills the better option?" … 

and off course some decisions are hard to make. Von Spee has two tier one skills, i would like to take on my german DDs. "unstoppable" and "a thousand cuts" both are very powerful and useful on german DDs (hybrids). Even the third option is very nice "homerun". third row is hard as well. "look at me now" and "delicious" are both very useful on german DDs, because they have mediocre speed and concealment alike. 

sims has three interesting legendary skills. If you already skilled "homerun", the negative effect on "less is more" is barely noticeable anymore. Good if you play torpedo focused. If you play more gun focused, "back in stock" or "stand or fall" are both valid options.

i want to skill two row one skills and skip the tier three one but that is not allowed … and its good that way.

To many big words hurt my head lol but...some players never think ahead like that while other need to know everything about the ship...commander an so on. I think you have to meet in the middle with things like that so everyone can play how they want/like too. 

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39 minutes ago, KaLeuWillenbrock said:

to be honest. There are more layers to decision making.

the first decisions:

"which of the commanders are a good choice for my class?". Coupled with: "is this the commander usable with my play style?"

next ones: 

"what are the best skills for my play style every tier?" … "do i need defensive skills as well?" … "how often am.i really using my torpedoes?" … " are guns specific skills the better option?" … 

and off course some decisions are hard to make. Von Spee has two tier one skills, i would like to take on my german DDs. "unstoppable" and "a thousand cuts" both are very powerful and useful on german DDs (hybrids). Even the third option is very nice "homerun". third row is hard as well. "look at me now" and "delicious" are both very useful on german DDs, because they have mediocre speed and concealment alike. 

sims has three interesting legendary skills. If you already skilled "homerun", the negative effect on "less is more" is barely noticeable anymore. Good if you play torpedo focused. If you play more gun focused, "back in stock" or "stand or fall" are both valid options.

i want to skill two row one skills and skip the tier three one but that is not allowed … and its good that way.

Why is it good that way? 

Why is it good to force players to a playstyle they don't want? 

For me it's impossible to have a DD comander the way I want him to be.

And even if there was one who had all the lethal skills for a DD there would be no space for individuality.

I think there should be at least two more levels of skills to choose from. That way it will stay simple like WG wants it to be but still leaves space for some player choices. 

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Vor 1 Stunde, Momowala sagte:

Why is it good that way? 

Why is it good to force players to a playstyle they don't want? 

For me it's impossible to have a DD comander the way I want him to be.

And even if there was one who had all the lethal skills for a DD there would be no space for individuality.

I think there should be at least two more levels of skills to choose from. That way it will stay simple like WG wants it to be but still leaves space for some player choices. 

because nobody is forced into a certain play style.

you have choices to make and that is a good thing.

 

in addition, it helps balancing the game. 

let's say a ship line comes out that extremely benefits from a certain skill or skill combination in the game, because it makes you pass a certain threshold. The skill is balanced for all the other ship lines but a single one gets too strong because of it. What do you do? On PC, you could either change the ship line or the skill but both things are not good for the game. The changes to the ship line might not be possible, because you can not change … lets say the guns calibre. If you change the skill in a universal skill tree, ALL other ships are effected as well. 

here, said skill might be on a Captain that us not that good for the class you are playing or other skills are not available (or in the same row). if you change one skill on one Captain to balance one line.

a mind game:

Raizo Tanakas skill "hide'n'seek" is too strong in combination with "look at me now". the ships concealment bonus becomes too good and creates balancing issues. several commanders have the skill "look at me now" but only Tanaka has "hide'n'seek". To balance the commander and the DDs (Tanaka obviously is a DD commander), you can make "hide'n'seek" stronger, while exchanging "look at me now" with another skill. BäM!! - commander is balanced, without changing other captains and creating problems for other ship lines.

this works both ways. 

cruisers with Togo Heihachiro deal too much damage, because the buff from "not today" is too strong, while cruisers with Isoroku Yamamoto on the bridge are balanced. What do you do? You adjust "not today" and leave the hard stats of the cruisers unchanged.

the different captains with their different skill combinations provide a lot of possibilities to fine tune the game for a better balancing. This is an incredibly powerful tool. 

 

let's look at the PC version. A lot of ships are basically too powerful with IFHE, while others need it to be able to do their job. this skill is a thorn in the side of the community for a long time. light cruisers (150mm range) become extremely powerful with this skill. Other ships like the haida (120mm) need this skill to damage everything that is better armored than a DD. Sure. You can argue, that the haida is a DD hunter and also has a set of torpedoes. I would counter, that in games with only a few DDs, i would be too limited in my capabilities without IFHE, because she has only one set of torpedoes and they are not that good concealed. In addition, the nerf to the haidas (already low) fire chance is noticeable and a passable trade off. 

if we would change IFHE on PC, ships like the haida and other ships (who are balanced because of IFHE), would become too weak and would need additional adjustments. T

hat is far more work and a lot more difficult.

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@KaLeuWillenbrock this will not stop cookie cutter captain builds, no more than the PC does. Everyone will gravitate to what works. The thinking this will add more choice or better balance things is just an illusion.

 

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Vor 15 Minuten, Ruthless4u sagte:

 

@KaLeuWillenbrock this will not stop cookie cutter captain builds, no more than the PC does. Everyone will gravitate to what works. The thinking this will add more choice or better balance things is just an illusion.

 

No. It will make it easier to balance cookie cutter builds, thereby making builds with other captains viable alternatives. 

we don't even have all the skills available yet. They have additional 40 skills in the making - according to the live stream.

more captains with different skill combination adds more variety - especially when you can balance cookie cutter builds more easily.

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14 minutes ago, KaLeuWillenbrock said:

No. It will make it easier to balance cookie cutter builds, thereby making builds with other captains viable alternatives. 

we don't even have all the skills available yet. They have additional 40 skills in the making - according to the live stream.

more captains with different skill combination adds more variety - especially when you can balance cookie cutter builds more easily.

But yet the majority will still use the same captains with the same skill sets. You could have 20 different commanders, all with different predetermined skills and yet if only 4 are really viable then the other 16 are just filler to give the illusion of options.

If you needed to go off-road in a vehicle and you had 5 choices to use, say a 4x4 suv, a Honda civic, a Yugo,  an Aerostar( minivan) and a VW bug. Which would you choose? Sure you have 5 options but only one real viable choice.  The same will happen here. 

Besides we don't know how many of those new skills will be for carriers or duplicates.

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all i am reading from you is "if" and "when".

on PC, there are only a hand full of viable ships and skills when it comes to competitive play. Extreme cookie cutter builds, min maxed to the limit. 

have you looked at the PC skill table? It only looks like variety. But arp. 1/4 of the skills are cv only. Another 1/4 is more or less too situational to be viable. especially the secondary gun skills are not really viable in competitive. Every class more or less skills into the same area with only a few differences. most DDs use the same basic setup and only vary the last 9 points. some skills can be found in almost all builds, because they are universally good. Others are more or less niche like wider smoke.

if it really boils down to four cookie cutter captains, those can easily be adjusted to balance them.

 

and since you brought the broad majority into the equation: They implemented a feature in wows PC, that crosses out skills, that are not useful for the ship you are playing, because most people were not able to see, that a second catapult fighter on a DD is as useful as nipples on a piece of chest armor.

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You're absolutely right with that, @KaLeuWillenbrock. It is okay to take away certain skills from some nations to balance them. I'm absolutely fine with that.

But,for now, there is no captain who has all the skills necessary for a DD. The lethal skills for a DD captain are:

1) True grit because you never want to be unable to steer your DD.

2) Unstoppable because a DD without enginepower is a dead DD.

3) Look at me because it's impossible to fulfill your role without good concealment 

4) Fine engineering because the modules on DDs are so fragile and the HP buff is a great help for a class that has the lease

5) Intuitive because you need to know where the next enemy ship (also known as the biggest threat besides radar) is.

 

This would take the base trait and all the ranked skills away and only leave the legendary skills to choose from. That's not what I would call variety. That isn't a captain built, that is boring and taking away choices from the players.

I want to choose from faster reload or more range on the torps. Higher penetration or higher chance of fires on HE shells. Better guns or better torps. More consumables or longer smoke duration etc. That are captain builds. That is variety. That is having options to choose from. 

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imo, it is exactly why i like the skill trees and why they are good - better than the set of skills on PC.

you have to decide between survivability or offense. You can't build the perfect destroyer. If one nation could build the perfect DD commander, the game would become incredibly imbalanced and we would end up in the same situation, the PC is suffering in.

cookie cutter builds, you have to skill (if you want to win), because there is no alternative.

we need three skills per row, to have alternatives for different playstyles though.

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26 minutes ago, KaLeuWillenbrock said:

imo, it is exactly why i like the skill trees and why they are good - better than the set of skills on PC.

you have to decide between survivability or offense. You can't build the perfect destroyer. If one nation could build the perfect DD commander, the game would become incredibly imbalanced and we would end up in the same situation, the PC is suffering in.

cookie cutter builds, you have to skill (if you want to win), because there is no alternative.

we need three skills per row, to have alternatives for different playstyles though.

But with limited skills there is even less alternative. So if out of all the commanders for a nation a player don't find any with skill set choices they want, what's there options? Either choose a class or nation they are not interested in?

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Vor 2 Minuten, Ruthless4u sagte:

But with limited skills there is even less alternative. So if out of all the commanders for a nation a player don't find any with skill set choices they want, what's there options? Either choose a class or nation they are not interested in?

you keep saying, that there ae limited skills. that is true, if you look at one isolated Captain. 

but we have several. Already three for the major nations and more are to come.

there are not less alternatives, because we have the possibilities to skill and buff different aspects. survivability OR offense. Torpedoes OR guns. Fire chance OR smoke. And so on.  

nobody will get the perfect Captain and that's very good. Why is it good, because it creates multiple ways to play a ship, line or class. 

on PC, everybody in competitive gameplay has more or less the same build but if a survivability, a gun and a torpedo build are more or less equally effective, it creates variety and variety is what would make gameplay interesting as a whole. 

this can off course only be achieved, if the captains are properly balanced. It is our job to help them balance the captains.

i highly doubt, that they will implement captains, that are not usable on their nations ships and if they do, we can point it out and help balance them. 

though balance can be achieved by copy pasting the captains, it would be a shame to do so and it might create more balancing problems, if one if the skills is too effective on other ships or lines. The way they are going now, is good and i wish you could see the possible variety of the captains.

i get the sad feeling, that you want a carbon copy of the PC game. if that is the case, i have to tell you, that we are not getting it. For better or for worse - the development team is not the one from the PC version or wotc. yes some people from the PC version are working on this project but wether you like it or not, its a different game and it is far too late to radically change it. They have a good concept (mvho) and they stick to their plan. 

i am still testing the game, because i like this version more than the PC version, because i see more variety and hard choices. "Oh your engine gets knocked out? shame you did not skill xyz … instead, i took more damage, because you skilled abc." … "Your torpedoes are faster and therefore harder to evade? Cool … my guns fire faster."

that is what is going to make every encounter interesting* … but i am helping and willing to give them room to create something new and you should too. If it all goes to hell, we can abandon the ship and play something else.

 

*only if the commanders are properly balanced off course.

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@KaLeuWillenbrock

I don't want a carbon copy, but I would like the best aspects carried over. Limiting player choice I do not think is a good direction to go. As far as balance its been made clear what is perceived the majority wants is what will happen, which is all well and good if it's two wolves and a sheep voting on what's for dinner and your one of the wolves, less so if your the sheep.

I don't believe that having 5 captains or 50 with pretermined skill set options is a good thing if none are viable to the players that want to use them. I'll ask again seeing you ignored it last time.

If a player finds none of the captains in a given nation they want to play suitable to their playstyle what options does that player have?

I will remind you it's not different it's a scaled down version. Maybe if they did not " borrow" so heavily you could consider it different. But jiggling around a few tech trees and eliminating player choices does not really qualify it as being its own entity.

I'm still testing because despite its faults( and no game is perfect, except star citizen) I still have fun playing and testing it. I know I'm in the minority opinion on just about everything but I can live with it lol. Last thing they need is a bunch of yes men( not saying you are) and there are plenty of them.

If PC version was still an option, I would play it over this version because I like the options it gives. I can still have fun here but I don't see myself spending on premiums like I would there. And if Naval action devs ever got their heads on straight I would hook up my PC on my ceiling if I had too to play it.

 

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if a player does not find the perfect skill on the perfect Captain on the perfect ship, well … adapt or bust.

there are 32 skills on PC - some if them useless, borderline useless or specifically useful for one class. On some ships, maybe only 10 skills are really useful for the class and the rest are fillers.

my perfect haida Captain on PC needs at least 24 points (27 would be better) but i only have 19 points. In this case, I have to make decisions what skills are really needed and what is luxury. On my Hindenburg, i once skilled bft, because i had points left and it was useful every ten or twenty games when a cv showed up

in legends - there will be no perfect captains to prevent cookie cutter builds. It is the right decision, because it prevents limitations on builds. The very thing you criticize is the big problem of the builds on PC. You only have one viable build per meta (with slight changes here and there), that are very powerful and everybody with YouTube skills like that. Some ships are not even part of the current meta - try to play gaede in ranked after rank 15 - your team will love you.

What's the difference between 15, 32 and 90 skills, if only one combination is possible? With the lack of perfect captains, there will be no perfect builds. If three (ideally more) builds on different captains are comparably effective and therefore viable, its a win in my book.

You can not make everybody happy and instead of giving useful feedback, you bash the system as dumbed down. That is not only not helpful, you are also limiting yourself because you don't look at what is possible and what might work.

I see possibilities and give feedback on how to make things better … you should do the same beyond "copy feature xyz".

 

habe fertig

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@KaLeuWillenbrock

I realize you said your done, but I will end my part with this. I provide honest feedback and opinions along with suggestions from my point of view, it's not bashing. Even my 10 year old thinks it's been dumbed down( he played pc as well )I'm not going to be an echo chamber for the sake of it. I know not being a yes man will cost me in the end, always does, not to worried tho.

A pleasure as always.

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13 hours ago, KaLeuWillenbrock said:

imo, it is exactly why i like the skill trees and why they are good - better than the set of skills on PC.

you have to decide between survivability or offense. You can't build the perfect destroyer. If one nation could build the perfect DD commander, the game would become incredibly imbalanced and we would end up in the same situation, the PC is suffering in.

cookie cutter builds, you have to skill (if you want to win), because there is no alternative.

we need three skills per row, to have alternatives for different playstyles though.

 

There won't be cookie cutter builds, you're right. But there will be cookie cutter captains. There will only be one captain who is the best suitable for a ship / line and some others who might be okay but not that good. So it is absolutely the same as on PC, only dumbed down. Even if you don't want to hear that.

 

12 hours ago, KaLeuWillenbrock said:

you keep saying, that there ae limited skills. that is true, if you look at one isolated Captain. 

but we have several. Already three for the major nations and more are to come.

there are not less alternatives, because we have the possibilities to skill and buff different aspects. survivability OR offense. Torpedoes OR guns. Fire chance OR smoke. And so on.  

nobody will get the perfect Captain and that's very good. Why is it good, because it creates multiple ways to play a ship, line or class. 

on PC, everybody in competitive gameplay has more or less the same build but if a survivability, a gun and a torpedo build are more or less equally effective, it creates variety and variety is what would make gameplay interesting as a whole. 

this can off course only be achieved, if the captains are properly balanced. It is our job to help them balance the captains.

i highly doubt, that they will implement captains, that are not usable on their nations ships and if they do, we can point it out and help balance them. 

though balance can be achieved by copy pasting the captains, it would be a shame to do so and it might create more balancing problems, if one if the skills is too effective on other ships or lines. The way they are going now, is good and i wish you could see the possible variety of the captains.

i get the sad feeling, that you want a carbon copy of the PC game. if that is the case, i have to tell you, that we are not getting it. For better or for worse - the development team is not the one from the PC version or wotc. yes some people from the PC version are working on this project but wether you like it or not, its a different game and it is far too late to radically change it. They have a good concept (mvho) and they stick to their plan. 

i am still testing the game, because i like this version more than the PC version, because i see more variety and hard choices. "Oh your engine gets knocked out? shame you did not skill xyz … instead, i took more damage, because you skilled abc." … "Your torpedoes are faster and therefore harder to evade? Cool … my guns fire faster."

that is what is going to make every encounter interesting* … but i am helping and willing to give them room to create something new and you should too. If it all goes to hell, we can abandon the ship and play something else.

 

*only if the commanders are properly balanced off course.

 

In competitive every ship only has one job to do. If it it spotting, tanking, long range support or whatever. There will always only be 2-3 ships that serve the job the best (only Stalingrad can do everything).

And there will always only be skillset that serves this job no matter how many options you have.

Competitive is an totally different game than random WoWs. And competitive is not what we are talking about here nor is it what we are testing here. To argue that there need to be limitations in random because of the lack of variety in competitive doesn't really make sense. 

I doubt anyone wants a carbon copy of the PC captains, the system obviously doesn't work as intended. But some of us want real choices, not only having to choose between sodom or gomorra. 

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